Plato Grogias
General
So, if we are defining dialectic as the meaning, value, or validity of something (like a term or concept), we can view dialectic as a process of discovery and distinction. Now, someone such as Socrates would see dialectic as a process of seeking out the truth. I would disagree with him on the outcome of dialectic. Seeing as Socrates is a man of philosophizing, I think I could persuade him that truth is often undefinable or evolving. Examples such as these are "the white raven" and the "black swan." One could argue truth has evolved and what was true yesterday is not true today. Not only that, but there are also truths we may never decipher, understand, or witness. Dialectics may find some truths, but the purpose, in my opinion, is to sort what we know and continue discovery. I do not see dialectic in a philosophical sense as a destination but a journey. In the practical sense, it is a way to narrow down what a person means by their words.
Considering Socrates was a man of orthodoxy, one to correct opinions, I think he would be glad at my correction, or at least, have fun with the dialogue on dialectic and truth. This leads to another point about dialectic in regard to Socrates. He valued dialectic over rhetoric as he saw it stemming from philosophy. Since it stems from philosophy, dialectic was viewed as a superior quality. An easier way to think about this is philosophy (thinking) + dialectic (seeking) = truth. Meanwhile, rhetoric can be viewed as flattery (power) + rhetoric (persuasion) = not truth. The basis of rhetoric, from Socrates, was to gain something of power or material. Of course, I could argue that one can is gaining knowledge through truth, but he may refute me on material versus intellectual. Material may help a man, but truth can help a civilization. Truth is justice and justice is truth. At least, for him and Gorgias. Where they differ is their feelings about rhetoric and where it leads but they both want a good, just outcome.
After reading Plato, it does become apparent why Socrates is the foundation of what is titled the Socratic Method. He questions others to an extreme degree to make them think of the weaknesses in their argument. He also gladly accepts anyone to refute him as he wishes to learn himself. While I do find his arguments to be exhausting, I think there is value in squeezing an opponent's argument down to the bone to see if it can still stand.
"You’d come up for trial and face some no good wretch of an accuser and be put to death, if death is what he’d want to condemn you to." - Callicles
I also want to acknowledge the fact that Callicles and Socrates foreshadow Socrates' death. Callicles asserts that since Socrates is against rhetoric, he would not know how to conduct himself in a trial if he was accused of something. Socrates agrees with this statement but would rather die justly. In the end, he must have died with a mind at ease as by his statements.
Plato, Gorgias
Let's go over the main points before diving closer so we have a guide map for along the way. Socrates and Gorgias have a dialogue before it turns to Polus and then Callicles. The points are justice/judgment, truth, rhetoric, and good/bad. *
* In tarot, justice is seen as the finder of fairness and truth. A call to action, if you will. While judgment can be about decisions in tarot, it is more about growth and transformation. It seems to align with Socrates on why punishment should be brought so that a person can correct their bad deeds. Instead of judgment being the finale, it is a pause. Justice is more associated with a person while judgment is more associated with otherworldly. For Socrates, it is Hades (this really just means the Underworld, but they often use his name interchangeably; also, it is worth noting that Persephone/Kore, wife of Hades, can also judge souls). For tarot, well, it is left up to the beliefs of the interpreter (God(s), higher power, karma, the universe).
With Gorgias, Socrates tries to pin down that rhetoric is not a craft, and that oratory is not "the greatest good." Through this section, I interpreted it as Gorgias being practical and Socrates being philosophical. This is where Socrates and the orators really butt heads as Socrates is not interested in what is practical while the orators are only interested in what is practical. While Socrates and Gorgias do agree that justice and good are a desired outcome, the way in which they wish to achieve them differs. Socrates views seeking truth to be the way while Gorgias sees rhetoric (persuasion) as the way.
Socrates also brings up it is not the only profession that uses persuasion. On top of this, persuasion is not an inherent good as one can use wicked deeds through them and can lead to generally bad outcomes. He pushes against Gorgias' views that whoever is the most persuasive does not have to be the most knowledgeable and yet, can be in a role as if they knew as much. He believes the most knowledgeable should be in that role.
Socrates then likens rhetoric to a knack that's purpose is "for producing a certain gratification and pleasure." Rhetoric is based on what is pleasant not what is best (truth). Another purpose of rhetoric is flattery which also does not lead to what is best and is focused on gain.
When he associates rhetoric with flattery, Polus comes into the dialogue. He brings up power and tyrants. If a tyrant can do as he pleases, he wields power. Socrates disagrees that they have the least power as he is forced to do what he ought to do than what he wants to do. I see Socrates as essentially saying that tyrants are powerless as they are at the mercy of trying to keep power. They don't do the things they would like to do as they are preoccupied by what power needs them to do.
It is then brought up of doing something for the sake of it. A person who is sick will take treatment (even if it is difficult or unpleasant) for the sake of bettering their health. There is talk of what is good and is bad which can be summarized by good and bad is more a contextual thing such as sometimes the bad leads us to good (sick -> treatment -> healthy). To be absolute is to miss the intricacies of these situations. While being treated unjustly is bad, the unjust person is worse. The unjust person is among "the greatest evils" and is "shameful." An unjust person can right his wrongs, however, if he seeks and accepts his punishment as it rids the evilness from his soul. One who continues on his unjust path will be met with punishment in Hades.
Callicles steps into the conversation by insulting Socrates as meddling in child's play (philosophy). He points out that a person should be dedicated to learning the ways of laws and conducting business. By philosophizing, he is disregarding reality and practical matters which will only lead to a wider gap in inexperience. “You’re neglecting the things you should devote yourself to, Socrates, and though your spirit’s nature is so noble, you show yourself to the world in the shape of a boy."
The dialogue then circles back around to good, bad, pleasant, and pain. Socrates defends by saying "So, feeling enjoyment isn’t the same as doing well, and being in pain isn’t the same as doing badly, and the result is that what’s pleasant turns out to be different from what’s good." Again, the complexities of good and bad are not the same as pleasant and painful. Callicles also does this for superior being good and intelligence being good while Socrates separates characteristics from goodness as they are relative, not absolute.
"Because it turns out that good things are not the same as pleasant ones, and bad things not the same as painful ones. For pleasant and painful things come to a stop simultaneously, whereas good things and bad ones do not, because they are in fact different things. How then could pleasant things be the same as good ones and painful things the same as bad ones?"
"So we should do the other things, including pleasant things, for the sake of good things, and not good things for the sake of pleasant things."
A quote I want to end on, "This way of life is the best, to practice justice and the rest of excellence both in life and in death."